The Perils of Open Recruitment


I don't often talk about the internal workings of Stay Frosty and A Band Apart on the blog. As much as my critics like to bash me for blogging about everything, I typically remain silent on many topics. Which they wouldn't know about, since I'm silent on them. That being the entire point. It works surprisingly well.

I'm going to break the wall a bit on this post and talk about two specific losses that recently happened inside of Stay Frosty. These losses have sadly been replayed across the community, on Twitter, on the Mittani's site, on Reddit, and elsewhere. So they are incredibly public already. So I don't feel the need to sugar-coat anything, or protect a Corp mates pride. Instead I'd like to use them to illustrate several points about our Corporation and how we try to handle situations like this that sometimes arise.

If you are not already aware, I am referring to this Phantasm loss and the Pod, and then last night's other Phantasm loss, which was even worse. Just for a little perspective, the character is 4-8 on the killboard. Already he has lost about half of the Isk that I have lost in SEVEN YEARS of playing Eve.

Let's take a step back. From day one Stay Frosty has been Open Recuitment. You put an application in and you get accepted. That is the entire application process. If the character is extremely young, we try to talk to them and make sure they know what they are getting into. Some very young players thrive and some do not. I believe in the "sink or swim" process, either you get it and get involved, or you don't. Most do. But Stay Frosty is not for everyone and we are not trying to be a one size fits all place to play. That is not our goal.

Over the past two plus years we've seen a few bad eggs. Surprisingly few frankly, given the Open Recruitment policy, but we've had our fair share of trolls, corp thieves, spais, and whatnots. Again, not that many. A half-dozen or so over two years is not bad. In fact I suspect it isn't a rate all that different from those more strict recruitment policy Corporations.

When an incident happens we always attempt to talk to the people or person involved. I believe it is important to give them a chance to explain themselves. I don't know everyone personally and mistakes happen. Mostly they turn out to be trolls with an axe against me to grind, or an alt of someone that is strangely out to get me. One infamous person in particular usually.

I spoke to the Phantasm pilot. Others did as well. As always our pilots receive the benefit of the doubt. We have a 30 day trial for a reason. Normally our pilots in trial receive trial roles, but in this case I withheld those roles. While his explanations could be true, they also could be lies. It is always hard to tell. But, as always, the truth usually comes out eventually. Someone was nice enough to use his first loss as a post on The Mittani's site and the reasons the pilot gave there were different than those given to me.

And then it happened again. This time much worse.

What is that old saying? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. While I encourage our pilots to disregard killboard stats and encourage them to take chances, but even then sometimes things go above and beyond. This is a case like that. This has nothing to do with a stupid loss and everything to do with stupidity.

I don't know this pilot. I don't know his or her story. It could be an alt out to damage our credibility or killboard. It could be any number of things. Doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is that they are no longer in our Corporation as of this morning.

We can close the door on another weird incident and move on.

When you leave your door open it is important to be able to close it every so often.



36 comments:

  1. Maybe a "don't fly more expensive than 100M" rule could be applied on trialists. They should be encouraged to fight, but not to take crippling losses or wallet-warrior themselves to the top page of Zkillboard.

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    1. One has to wonder where did such a young player come across so much isk first of all, and then decide to waste it all on two ships? I dunno, I feel like some things should be self-evident shouldn't they?

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    2. And remember while you can have a rule, there is no way to enforce. Someone really doesn't like you Rixx.

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    3. I don't know why, but I do seem to attract a certain level of "hate" from time to time.

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    4. fk haters! those who hate rixx are only jealous of what they won't 'ever' be. eve is full of those drooling lurkers, wannabees and copycats. They'd want you to join their school of thoughts and bend over to their ideals. stay as you are rixx and keep striving in what you've always believed right. - abi

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  2. I'm going to guess stupidity + money.

    I've played with tons of newbros over the years and they do do stuff like this, normally not so extreme. The 2 month newbro in a battleship with mixed tank and guns is pretty common.

    Add to that lots of RL money (maybe mum's credit card) and a background from WoW where people judge you almost purely on your gear then you get people like this guy.

    Good for you for getting rid of him because he is both dumb and, I'd guess, thinks he's really smart.

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    1. Entirely possible. We've all seen those types of people and their losses, I hate to judge people and their motivations, but there have to be limits.

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  3. So he lost some ships? So what? How and/or why does this have any bearing on you or your corp? Its his isk to lose. If he can afford to learn at that rate of loss, who cares? I thought you weren't one of those people who cared about killboard stats?

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    1. I don't care about killboard stats. I do however care about my pilots. And those two things are not always mutually exclusive. If someone is having a hard time or experiencing exceptional losses, then they need help. Obviously this young pilot choose not to listen to advice or help, and lied to several members of our Corp who tried to offer assistance, myself included. That, plus the potential of him/her being an attempt to troll us, was the reason for ejection. Not the losses per se.

      I thought I was rather clear on that.

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    2. I'm outside of eve looking in so forgive any ignorance.

      You can only be trolled by losses if you give a flying fuck about killboard stats. I realy dont understand eve i guess.

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    3. That isn't true. Such losses reflect back on every pilot in our corporation and our alliance, those that are working hard to achieve their own goals and work to get better at the game. In addition, it does affect our ability to recruit, or to hold events, or to organize outside the alliance. While I may not care much about killboards, I do care a tremendous amount about other things.

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    4. No, they don't Rixx. Losses reflecting back on others that is, you can tell yourself that but it isn't true.
      When I lose some ridiculous fit (and I do sometimes :P) that doesn't reflect on anybody else in SKRMR, unless they suffer from some weird form of replacement/projected shame. How is what I lose in anyway relevant to what my corp mates do or don't lose? I generally have no idea what my corp mates are losing, I don't really look vOv
      And if somebody decides 'this one SF pilot is an idiot so they must be a corp of idiots' you should probably encourage them thinking that, seems to me people underestimating the non idiots in corp would be a helpful thing ^_^ Consider it a sort of investment in your general engagability if you must spin it somehow :P
      And why would you even want to recruit people who care about the board? It's apparently contrary to your corp culture so that recruit would most likely end up turning out toxic anyway vOv

      If the person lied then sure, confront them about that and if they don't have an explanation for the lie you can live with by all means do as you see fit. But when you explicitly state you don't care about killboards then don't use it as an argument after, that's pretty flip floppy :)

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    5. One day, most likely far in the future, I will write something and you will have something positive to say about it. I remain eternally hopeful that day will come sooner rather than later. Until then however, I must content myself with the obvious fact that no matter what I say or write, you will end up on the other side. I've spent years and thousand on thousands of words on this blog explaining and over explaining my position on killboards, one would hope by now that such a position would almost be burrowed into my DNA. But I guess not.

      I will say it again, killboard had nothing, zero, nada, zilch, zip, to do with what happened.

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    6. Kaeda has the right of it... If you don't care about kill boards, then don't period. But don't wheedle around and say you don't care but as they are tied to 'this' or 'that' then you have no choice... I call BS.

      I couldn't give a rats ass for ISK losses or wins, mine or anyone else's... I lost a Vargur once, a 1.5Bil loss... so what? My ship, my ISK, my game. And lo and behold NO ONE in my corp even suggested I get a "talking to" much less kicked... and if they had been that kinda corp and guys, I wouldn't be here.

      It was all about my taking a risk, flying solo in a hole running Sleepers and I got jumped by an Eve Uni gang... I was a bit upset at first... not over the ISK, but cause I was complacent and not watching DScan and the loss (of the ship) was on me.

      I ended up giving the guys who did the kill a GF and kudo's for a well done hotdrop. Then I went to Jita, bought n fitted out a copy of the one I lost and flew it back in the hole that night.

      It's my ISK, my ships and my game. If you talk the talk about not caring about the ISK, then walk the walk.

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    7. "I will say it again, killboard had nothing, zero, nada, zilch, zip, to do with what happened. "...

      Then why post the KB links? You sure didn't talk about his flying, or the engagement, or the guys who killed him, where it happened, how and or why...

      You posted just the KB loss and talked about how...
      "Such losses reflect back on every pilot in our corporation and our alliance, those that are working hard to achieve their own goals and work to get better at the game. In addition, it does affect our ability to recruit, or to hold events, or to organize outside the alliance."

      Which is not true if you and they actually don't care about the ISK, or care about the opinions of people who do. It really is that simple. If you don't care, then this was a non event.

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    8. Trying to troll you? By losing lots of isk? It's clear the killboard stats are important to you. Be honest with us and yourself (you wont though)

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    9. It's not that I never agree with you Rixx, it's that I don't open my mouth when I have nothing to add :)

      Anyway, I believe that you personally don't care about the killboard as a record of anything. I have no reason to doubt that is true if you say that is the case.
      But I also think you are keenly aware of how most of EVE sees killboards and that you know many others will let their perception of a corporation/alliance be influenced by killboard records.
      And I'd be shocked if someone who's does what the real life Rixx does for a living wouldn't be keenly aware of the 'public perception' and how a killboard might influence that, you pretty much said so when you mention it reflects back (which I think is a fallacy/faulty logic, but the effect still occurs with people who won't think that or see that).

      So I believe *you* on a personal level don't care about killboards, I don't believe for a second that Rixx the Stay Frosty CEO doesn't care about killboards when he thinks they affect his EVE organisations outward image (and you pretty much say so in your post). I also thinks that fine, unlike many EVE players I don't think caring is a dirty word.

      My only point was that the post claims 'we don't care about X' and the lists a bunch of reasons related to X and because I'm a pedantic twat I then had to call you on that :P
      If your post had been this person lost this & this and then he told this story to the EVE press and this story to me and turns out he or she is a cheeky lying cunt so we kicked 'm I'd never have said a word :)

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    10. I always appreciate your perspective Kaeda and appreciate it when you do comment.

      I'll answer you the same way I answered Turamarth at the bottom, those things you mention - the killboard effects, the isk, the way people perceive things, the press, the Reddit comments, all of that - is called CONTEXT.

      I personally lost 8 ships yesterday. My personal context makes that kind of day not unusual. Other corporation members often bring blingy ships to film videos, or live stream, or for events, that is their CONTEXT. I would be a fool to deny that context has something to do with it, obviously it always does.

      This player's context was a 4-8 killboard, no communication in corp, lying to directors, not learning from past mistakes, and acting suspicously like someone who is the alt of someone else not identified. That is their CONTEXT. As an Open Recruitment corporation our context is that this sort of thing happens all the time and generates drama. Drama that we strive to not have.

      In light of all of that context it was decided that, while it is fine for anyone to lose whatever the hell they want, it would be best if they did so out of our corporation.

      And that decision has nothing to do with killboard efficiency or lack thereof. Period.

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    11. you did good rixx. oppose to me, i'd personally be harsher on new pilots losing more than 50m. truth be said i'd kicked him out of corp w/o warning and blap him down as he hauls his stuffs away. -abi

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  4. It sounds like the person with the losses either wasn't truthful enough or open enough about the incidents. That would bug the crap out of me as a ceo. I can deal with lots of 'things' that go awry, that's just life. It's imperative, however, that people be up front with me. I think you made the right choice.

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    1. Thanks. Over the years, and for various reasons, I've had people come to me and say they were going to try something, or fit something, for a special reason. For a video, or an event, or just for fun. I understand that. That is perfectly fine. But this happened twice and under suspicious circumstances.

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  5. The losses, who cares? Anyone that cares about KB stats is, in my view, misguided. KB stats don't measure fun. They don't even really measure competence.

    That said, the lying about what happened would be more of a concern.

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    1. You're the one to be misguided, pvpers care about their kb. Maybe you're a a newbie highsec miner? Sounds like it. Then again, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

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  6. A very strange one - sounds like you made the right choice. But it is a delicate balance and I hope SF never goes down the killboard isk efficiency path. Nice to know there's a corp out there that even my efficiency would still be welcome in :)

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    1. No it had nothing to do with efficiency positive or negative.

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  7. Who cares??? You kicked a guy over kill board stats, who may have joined you in order to adversely affect those kill board stats... but it was all over how he lost HIS ISK...

    Gods I am so incredibly tired of people who take the ISK war so damned seriously...

    FFS people it's a game... A great game, an fantastic game an AMAZING game... but in the end it's just a game.

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    1. I think you have me confused with someone else. Do you just comment on the blog posts or do you actually read them?

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    2. Really? then explain "And then it happened again. This time much worse." in words that don't include anything about the 'cost' of the ship and mods.

      You did not once mention HOW the loss occurred or why... just linked the KB stats and went on to describe how you ended up kicking him because "...sometimes things go above and beyond." Above and beyond what???

      ISK that's what.

      Sorry, Rixx... I'm just get real tired of the negativity in EVE sometimes is all.

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    3. I am the most positive Eve person alive. I spend countless hours promoting Eve, creating art for Eve, talking about Eve, and generally being the world's biggest cheerleader for Eve. So give me a break.

      If you'd read the post you'd already know that this was about lies, deception and trolling, not a bit about the loss or the killboard stats. That is all it had to do with, was context. If you or I go out and lose an expensive ship, it has context. For me it has to do with the other 5,000+ ships I've exploded. Context. This young man had no context, very little Corp interaction and two big losses on his 4-8 killboard. That was only CONTEXT.

      We have people in our Corp that lose expensive ships all the time, and nothing gets said. That is the difference, because they talk, they explain, they listen, they try to get better, they fly with us, they learn. If I have to explain this again I will start hitting myself with a hammer I swear to God.

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    4. Lord... (1) I dint mean you, you silly wigget... I respect adn like you man... I meant those 'other' people.... over there.

      And I do read your posts... all of them... all the way through... usually more'n once even.

      I guess if you had, as Keada said, "My only point was that the post claims 'we don't care about X' and the lists a bunch of reasons related to X and because I'm another pedantic twat I then had to call you on that :P"

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    5. The isk war makes what Eve online is all about. Without it we'd not spending hours reading, blogging or commenting about it's content, and even playing it. Get a life Turamarth, of gtfo - there be lots of flowery-lands-online awaiting you out there. -abi

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  8. The fact is most pvp corps in EVE are valuated by their KB. You may not care about it, but others do and that effects who is willing to join your group. Even newbies, might feel they don't want to belong to a corp with a poor KB. In the end, one most care about the KB, wanting it or not.

    However, I do wonder how a trial account got 4 billion isk. Or he has a really good... good friend or it's an alt from someone else trying to decrease the corp's KB.

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    1. Those questions obviously form a huge part of the equation.

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    2. One mustn't do anything. Also I'm in a PvP corps, a fairly decent one even and we have memes centered around making fun of people who take their kill board seriously! Noir. was our favorite target of ridicule for a good long while, but it changes sometimes :P

      We also don't even use voice comms 95% of the time. Most the things people tell you, you 'must' do in EVE to be 'successful' are nonsense. Nonsense invented by people who forgot this is a game so they don't feel as awkward about taking it so seriously. vOv

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  9. Actually. everyone I met in ST-FR including Rixx does in fact care a lot about his personal achievements in PvP. As a PvPer you play to win fights and you care about your ability and your achievements, you care about having the most solo kills in corp, to have the most impressive outclassed/outnumbered kills in comparison to your corp mates. This is a personal thing and there is also a spirit of competition amongst corp members. But no one cares about the corp kb and especially not about this stupid ISK efficiency.

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