How Dare You, Sir


Two incidents last night while I was flying around in space that seem different, but essentially have the same core problems at their heart. As usual I won't be mentioning any names, the who is not the story here. When I rarely mention names it is either because the person deserves some recognition, or because the person deserves some recognition. The who, in this case, is irrelevant. Mostly because these two attitudes are displayed rather often in Eve space.

Case One: On scan I notice an Atron and an Incursus inside a plex. No calls have been made in fleet chat. As always I warp in to engage both targets. Upon entering the plex I realize that the Incursus is a Stay Frosty pilot. I lock and shoot the Atron, which promptly explodes. I have effectively "whored" on the killmail. An action so prevalent that we have a term for it. (A term I abhor by the way)

Case Two: In another System, a Kestrel is on scan inside a plex. As always, I warp in to engage. I manage to get the Kestrel into low armor before he remembers that he has fitted WCS to his ship and promptly warps away. In local he says something to the effect of, "Picking on Newbros Rixx?"

The Atron pilot was upset with me and convo'd me to let me know. As always, I took the convo and engaged in conversation. I was accused of ganking, of doing something someone shouldn't expect from Stay Frosty. They were very disappointed in me. Much like the Kestrel pilot, they had developed some framework around expectations that have no basis in actual reality. Either real or imagined.

I've been rather clear I think. My only play-style inside of Eve involves undocking and engaging everything in space that isn't blue to me. I take this very seriously because it is fun. I purposefully do not gather intel on potential targets before I engage. I do not want to know how old a character is, or isn't before attacking them. I do not care about their Corp history, what Corporation or Alliance they might be in, or anything else about them. There are blues in space (A Band Apart) and then everyone else.

(There are more complicated engagement scenarios in which intel is needed, such as the Thanatos incident the other night. Please don't get me wrong here, intel has its place. But generally speaking, I don't really care. I can't. If I allow determination to act as a part of any potential engagement, then I've allowed morality to seep into the equation. And then I hesitate to make moral judgements. And I can't afford moral judgements, I'm a Pirate. As a moral person, those judgements come after a fight. In many cases resulting in Newbro compensation, advice, return of loot, etc. But not before a fight.)

I do not know you are a Newbro when I engage you. When I see two ships on scan and decide to take a 2v1, I have no way of knowing that one of them is a Stay Frosty pilot, unless some mention of the fight has been reported in fleet chat. Ask any Stay Frosty pilot how often we hunt down and warp in on each other. It happens ALOT.

Having said all of that, there are pilots in space that I know that are not blue. We live in a neighborhood and the regulars get to know each other. That is only natural. That is, in its own way, an evolving system of natural intel that works rather well. Many of these people, if they need assistance, will ask for it. And it will be given. Often, as we regularly do with the Bastards, we may even form up together to engage something worthwhile. There is a Pirate community and it has its own flexible codes by which we all try to adhere to varying degrees. We all have to live in the same neighborhoods.

I may help someone one day and then attack them the next. And I would expect the same from them, because this is what they will do. I should never assume they won't. Assumptions only get you killed in Eve.

The only security blanket in Eve is your Corp/Alliance. Everyone else is potentially friendly or potentially an enemy. And often, they are both things at the same time. For me, they are all the same. There is nothing personal in how I play Eve. It is only pixels after all. I treat everyone the same, I take all convos (unless I happen to be fighting when you try), I share loot, I often compensate young player losses, I give advice, and most importantly I assume we are all friends. Unless proven otherwise.

But if you are undocked and I am in local, I am hunting you. In one way or another you are a target. Why? Because I am also. Everyone is also hunting me.

Kill. Or be killed.

It doesn't get any easier to understand.




23 comments:

  1. This is how it should be, with no hard feelings and maybe even a sense of excitement at the potential danger! As an example: I brought a gift for Argos to Isho last night. Even as a former Stay Frosty member, I was a bit nervous about undocking after I delivered it because there were SF folks in Local. Fortunately, the undock was quiet and I slipped away. :P The "anything can happen and will, so expect the worst and just be cleverer than the other guy" mindset is something we try to instill in all our members. There is no entitlement in New Eden. :P

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    1. I don't know where this feeling comes from and maybe it comes from the environment, culture, experience, and day-to-day life that some people have from a gaming perspective - but it certainly isn't something that Eve is known for. It anything, it is the opposite.

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  2. I say dear sir? Have you no honor? Eve Online was built on the pillars of mutual trust, fair play and many of the other aspects from cricket and polo! You are not playing the game right at all sir!

    :P

    P.S. The mind boggles at some people!

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  3. Undergoing EVE burnout atm, but feel it's worth commenting on. Totally agree with you, Rixx, and it's why I joined SF/ABA. Aside from respecting duels and ransoms NBSI is it. I've been chastised for chasing a noob rifter while in a rifter because I 'should have known' he was a noob practicing at plex farming. Heh? Chased him through a few more low sec systems just so he knew my feelings on that.

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    1. Lol, well done. I often get asked in local why I bother when I know they are stabbed. And my answer is always the same, because you are in space. If I had a better target, then I'd be shooting it.

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  4. Very nice article Rixx and one that needed to be written. I am not an active PvP prefering logi and EWAR to solo PvP, but I respect the approach of NBSI. IT is what makes the game unique and less like real life (where the honor and not killing newbies obviously stems from). You care about creating your own content and not relying on others and I admire that.

    Thanks for the great blog.

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  5. I know when I try solo pvp my KB is much more red than when I fly with my corp, but I like the solo aspect, finding a fight I think is harder but I enjoy it all the same, I've fought several SF pilots and it has always been fun, even though I've always (up to now at least) been the one exploding.

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    1. Hang in there and keep learning. Believe me, a moment will come when that starts to change.

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  6. I think the attitude that we are all friends is the reason we have had a good community, but also part of the reason why I've never really enjoyed pvp in eve. It takes me out of the game to know that the fight was no big deal. My time in null before the capital ship was close to how I thought things should be. I still played it for 7 years.

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  7. Figured you'd write a post about it. And yeah when I convo'd you, I wasn't in a very good mood. I should have slept on that anger. I was dumb, let my guard down (again) around a former corpmate, and then I panicked when I saw the Comet warp in. I knew it was you. I was going to die. I was angry at myself for being dumb, yeah, for unlocking the Incursus, and not locking you, and thinking, I can't kill you, not enough paste, not enough armor, not enough time to get under your guns...and I've never fought a rail comet before. I don't remember if I got my pod out or not. I was slow to comprehend what happened.

    I was the "Atron pilot". And yeah, I was disappointed, mostly in myself, but yes, in SF and I did explain to you briefly WHY I felt so upset. But spin it how you want, it's your blog. A blog I read everyday, about a corp I idolized. When I was a new pilot, I wanted to be a part of it. I hesitated and hesitated. I dwaddled in highsec carebear corps and nullsec carebear corps and I was frustrated with the lack of pvp, but I was too afraid to make that leap. By the time I finally did, a lot of the risk aversion had set in, and I was fighting against it, hard. I started going out on my own with limited success and it wasn't enough. So joining SF was a big step forward for me, away from the guys who'd encouraged me to try lowsec, coaxed me out of nullsec, coached me, got me my first kills. Held my hand, basically. They asked me to join their corp, but I said I'm going to SF. I moved all my stuff from Minnie space and applied. No fanfare or anything, but within a few minutes I was in the pirate corp I'd always wanted to join. (Not like admission's that hard but still.)

    I'd been soloing for a long time by then but I wanted some like-minded pilots to do frig pvp with. My friends were more into cruisers and non-FW lowsec.These are warm, bawdy guys, guys who'll be lifelong friends. I was hoping to make some similar connections in SF, sharing kills and stories and fits. (I'm a fitting nerd, love analyzing them and was taught by a very very good pilot how to be effective with it.) What I got in SF was strange to me, different from the other corps I'd been in, pirate or otherwise. Chat was quiet. You and your guys were nice, but aloof. I figured, I'm new, they don't know me like my guys do, but it's cool, I'll try to be as active as possible. I joined fleets, got in on some good kills, but the lack of conversation in chat about them unnerved me a bit. "Nice kill" was posted and then nothing else for a long time. Then another kill post, a o/ as someone joined chat and then nothing again for hours. It was weird. "Don't these guys talk to each other?" I wondered. And fleets were slapdash affairs, throwing yourself haphazardly at targets, losing ships unnecessarily (in my view, I DO like intel) when we could have won a fight, the laissez faire approach to comms and lack of communication. (You can't type AND tackle well.) One particular Thorax fight exasperated me; he killed all four of us eventually, but I held tackle as my corpmates went down, hoping you guys would get back before I capped out and got popped. And you didn't. There's even a vid of us getting destroyed, which I posted in corp chat to dead silence, ofc.

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    1. As a pilot who was used to derping around in terrible nullsec fleets and then to come to SF and have the same thing happen...I was disappointed, yeah. I was naive. And yeah, SF isn't the corp for me. The frigid atmosphere, the disorganized fleets, the "solo with friends" thing which is misleading to say the least, the lack of conversation between you guys even after a great kill, it wasn't what I was expecting. I spent months there with nothing to really show for it. I made two good friends, that's about it. I've never been killed by former corpmates either. The corp I'm in now would see that as a sign of extreme disrespect, so when I got popped not once but three times by you guys, it was jarring.

      All of this might sound like griping or HTFU fodder or farmed tears or "why so serious internet spaceship" bullshit but a good corp is important in this game. You need to fit, feel comfortable, feel camaraderie, or you'll quit. I should have joined my friends a long time ago, instead of trying to shoehorn myself into a corp with a philosophy I don't follow, instead of idolizing a corp I knew nothing about except from Youtube vids, rave reviews and a green KB. That was my major mistake. And a lot of my "special snowflake" anger was from my own romanticized idea of your corp, an idea that came partially from this very blog.

      As for the ganking comment (the only thing you seem to remember from our convo, Rixx) that's how it felt. You don't need a Comet and an Incursus to kill an Atron. Though I didn't know you thought you were going into a two v one, which is understandable. I thought you knew the Incursus was your corpmate, so my apologies there.

      And yeah, you're right, Rixx, I had the wrong idea about SF. A history in the corp means nothing. Time spent there is no different than time spent in RvB, a passing distraction, Call of Duty style pvp, blap, explode, re-spawn, repeat. SF isn't going to change, isn't here to hold my hand, etc etc etc chest beating ad nauseum. Got it. Lesson learned.

      Tem

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    2. Temar,

      Stay Frosty is not for everyone. I've said that a gazillion times here on this blog, on Twitter, and in Podcast after Podcast. I don't want it to be for everyone. You are not the first person to come along and have a bad experience in our Corporation, and you will not be the last. I am unwilling to change anything about Stay Frosty to become the type of place that everyone will enjoy. I do know what it would take to achieve that and it would mean changing too much about us and turning us into something we are not. Either you like it, or you don't. I make no apologies for the fact that most people like it. Most people stay. Most people get involved on Forums, on Slack, and in their own way. But not everyone.

      The post you read was not about you. Which is why I didn't go into details about our convo. The only thing I wanted to use was the core concept in order to make a point. A well made point that you seem unable to grasp. Which is not unexpected given your anger about your own experience in Stay Frosty.

      Since you broke the silence I will also mention that I could have podded you. I didn't, because you are former Stay Frosty. And wether you know it or not, wether you care of not, that is respect for former corp mates. The kind of respect you seem to think we do not have.

      I can also remember at least three other times since you left the corporation that you needed help in local. And myself or those with me assisted you. You also seem to have forgotten, or have chosen to forget, those times as well.

      Believe it or not, I wish all our former Corp mates only the best in their own Eve careers. Inside of SF or out. I'm sorry your experience inside the corp was not the fantasy you had imagined. But it doesn't surprise me. We are not fantasy people, we are real people made of flesh and bone. Friends, mates, pilots that die for each other every single day. And who care about each other more than what happens in Eve.

      That kind of place is what we are. For most people.But not for everyone.

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    3. I'm not angry now. I wasn't even angry when I wrote that post, just wanted to tell my side of things. A bit sarcastic, yes, because it seemed to me like you just used the incident to grandstand on some point without taking into account the people behind it. I grasped said point just fine; I just don't agree with the philosophy behind it. (That line reeks of condescension, by the way.) And I was that Atron, even if that post wasn't about me personally. I mean, you don't know me personally. We live in two different cultures, EVE-wise. I value different things, like intel, and intelligent use of that intel, and tactics, and smart target selection and I'm not a big fan of dive-bombing into fights if I feel it'll waste my time (or my ship.) I don't get attached to ships, but I do name them whimsical things. How I die is more important to me than the loss of a ship. I like the stories of how fights unfold, how the pilot made his or her decisions, what lead to failure or victory. I'm not a fast-and-loose pvper; I need to know if I can kill a target, how I'll accomplish that, and form an exit strategy. I learned (and am still learning) pvp from a great group of friends and through pvp vids, videos that value smart piloting and calculated risk, not recklessness and impatience. I learned to tell who's in what ship via dscan and sometimes with a little smart baiting at plexes. I think it's about solo for me, "true solo", a girl and her ship, alone. I'm out in Isho and surrounding environs by myself, no backup waiting two jumps away. (A choice but also a test.) SF plays differently and I had to come to terms with that.

      And I wish my experience had been better too. Again it comes down to culture. From the minute newbies jump into our corp chat, they have our attention, we're already including them in light jokes and weird stories. I try to stay on top of their questions when I'm online, because there's nothing worse for a new pilot (or a returning one) than asking questions into a void, not knowing that someone may be AFK or pvping. They start to feel like their contributions and questions aren't important. And I honestly can't be bothered to try to change SF culture; I realize I don't really care about the corp that much to put much effort into turning you guys into Rooks and Kings.

      Also I wouldn't intentionally forget something like a helping hand. Outside the corp, I'm drawing a blank. I fleet up often with two particular Frosties, but we were actively seeking targets, they weren't "helping me out", so I'm confused about what you're referring to. You may have me confused with someone else, don't know. Also I don't really see podding as a sign of disrespect, it's just another ship, as far as my own pod is concerned. If I was too slow to warp out, I deserved it.

      And Bloody, it's not about E-honour for me. I've flown with the same five or six guys I met two years ago when I started my EVE career. So in a very real sense, I never left my first corp. I just explored and ventured off and they humored me. I always came back, got bored and wandered off again, head full of romantic little dreams. (I even told a long-time friend that I think EVE lacks Romance, capital R, to which he rightly groaned. I still think it does, whatever he says.)

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    4. Temar,

      You may not realize it but that comment is one of the most condescending comments I've ever had here on this blog. And that is saying something. I realize that your 231 pvp kills have made you an expert at judging other people's motivation, skill, and level of commitment to the game and their Corporation - but even so, you make a tremendous amount of assumptions based on zero evidence.

      The number of Temar posts on our forum: ZERO
      The number of Temar posts on our Slack channels: ZERO

      "I value different things, like intel, and intelligent use of that intel, and tactics, and smart target selection and I'm not a big fan of dive-bombing into fights if I feel it'll waste my time (or my ship."

      Wow. I've never heard of such things. I'll look into these right away and try to incorporate them into my play-style immediately.

      Yes, I'm being sarcastic because you not only are insulting me, but you are insulting all 200+ members of my Corporation. I'm sorry if your little feelings weren't taken care of and no one coddled you and made you feel like a Princess while you were in Stay Frosty. With so many pilots it takes time for me to go person to person and make sure everyone's pillows are properly fluffed and comfy.

      We are an amazing, good natured family of ruthless pirate killers. We don't talk alot in chat because we are in GANGS FIGHTING. Generally we leave the talking to "after-hours" in the Forum or on Slack. Where we have a rather vibrant and personal community by the way. But we never, ever force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

      And yes, we teach by doing. It is the best way to learn. Those that join my fleets and my gangs learn self-reliance, how to solo, and how to utilize small gang tactics that are best suited for the environment in which we operate. We have organized roams, we have Wolf Packs, and we often operate completely solo (most of the time without links, which is freaking unheard of)

      And believe it or not, we use Intel, tactics, and every other tool at our disposal to accomplish those goals, when needed.

      Your Corp sounds nice and quaint. You should bring them up to Ish.

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    5. "I realize that your 231 pvp kills have made you an expert at judging other people's motivation, skill, and level of commitment to the game and their Corporation"
      Ha, they don't. Never said they do, though I sound like an elitist snob. There are some very skilled pilots in your corp, pilots that I respect quite a bit. I was so nervous fighting Cervantes in an Atron vs Atron 1v1, I forgot to load null. I tagged along behind Skir Skor for a bit, feeling pretty inadequate, cause he can damn well kill things on his own. I had some great fleets with Marq, and Bold, and Thane, and regularly fleet with the latter two. Argos is pretty funny, Tia's the most passionate pilot you have and credits your corp with teaching him to pvp. And Nix can fit a ship like no one's business. And there's plenty more. In the above reply, I edited out some stuff about a cool Tengu kill Beirut scanned down and taking on two Gnosis (Gnosii?) with three other Frosties in just faction frigs and AFs. (We killed one and the other ran off, which we found to be hilarious.) But just like you said it's not about me on a personal level, it's not about them. How I felt wasn't about them, how I wanted to pvp wasn't about their individual skills, it's always been about how SF conducts itself overall. I can't say I personally learned anything I didn't already know from you or anyone else there and I was baffled by certain fits that go against my own philosophy of fitting. I would make critiques (probably unwanted) and Marq would explain it, and I still wouldn't agree with the logic but you guys don't care what anyone flies so I shut up.

      "The number of Temar posts on our forum: ZERO
      The number of Temar posts on our Slack channels: ZERO"

      I read the forums everyday, scoured every new post. From the birth of new babies to ship fits (Which was unique; none of my other corps had one. Well, not one I cared to read.) I'm not a forum person though. And feeling a little isolated as I did, I didn't think my contributions would even matter or that I was adding anything new so again, I shut my face and kept it moving. In all of my previous corps, we didn't withdraw to forums to talk, we talked then and there, via chat or via comms, since we were on a lot. Also I have no idea what Slack is. So, yeah, there's that.

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    6. "Wow. I've never heard of such things. I'll look into these right away and try to incorporate them into my play-style immediately."

      Forgetting for a second your throwaway line of not needing or wanting intel, you're kind of reckless. I wasn't used to that. In that Thorax fight I mentioned, you just threw yourself at that thing with your Catalyst and as we rushed to back you up, popped. We didn't kill him and I felt like we'd wasted that fleet on some whim. My corp doesn't operate that way. Again, a difference in culture. I have maybe three days of solid EVE time in my whole week. I cherish all my kills (well, the ganking of newbie plex farmers and 2015 characters aren't highlights) and I work hard to get them, being as cautious as I am. I CAN'T pvp the way you do, I just don't like that style of flying, it serves no purpose for me if I YOLO everywhere and die ingloriously. So every bit of intel, every advantage I can get is important. I'm sometimes over-hesitant and miss kills. I wanted to fight your Enyo when I saw it on scan in Manjo but I figured A) it would take forever to kill in my Atron, shooting into your two highest resists, and B) you'd probably load null and be quick on the draw grabbing me and I'd melt in short order. So I didn't say "Rixx 1v1 my Atron in ur Enyo bro, lulz" in local and went along my way. I regret that; it could have been a cool fight.

      I don't need to be treated like a princess, I want respect based on my piloting skills, not my sex. My corp doesn't coddle me; they rib me about dumb losses, for instance. (One quipped when I scanned a newbie DD in a plex and was nearly dancing in my chair with glee, "Inb4 Temar underestimates said newbie and dies horribly" It has happened. Several times. Looking at you, 2015 neut Dragoon, gf.) I just feel more comfortable there than I ever felt in SF, due to that overwhelming attention they lavish on new corpmates and the jokes at my expense and the feeling of inclusion in old corp history as they talked amongst themselves and explained old rivalries, fights, and friendships. I feel like I know what's going on, that I can contribute, that I can help shape that corp history. That I can, in fact, do what EVE advertises as its ultimate goal.

      I'm sorry if I offended you, but I've been holding my tongue for a long long time. And it's not about you personally. though I'm glad to see some passion from you; now you know how I felt when I was just "the Atron" pilot. I felt insulted, like I was just 'content', a blog post idea, just another green blip on your killboard.

      "Your Corp sounds nice and quaint. You should bring them up to Ish."

      Pfft, far from it. And I can try, but they do love their Minnie space, for some ungodly reason. It's home for me too, but yeesh, that reddish brown "sky" is depressingly ominous.

      Tem

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    7. I'm just going to quote a post I wrote back in May 2013 when I started Stay Frosty, we had 20 pilots at the time I wrote this:

      Stay Frosty. [ST-FR] is a new pirate corporation and we are currently accepting applications from all corners during our 30 day OPEN recruitment. You can join the EVEOGANDA in-game channel to talk to us.

      But why would you?

      You shouldn't.

      Pirating is hard, lonely and extremely dangerous. Everyone hates you and wants to see you fail. The only people you can count on are also scum-sucking pirates. You can't go into "decent" space, not with that criminal label on your passport. So you have to rely on others to bring you the things you need, or work your ass off to bring your Security Status up enough to do so yourself. You probably have a Bounty on your head. You probably have very little money in the bank because you spend it all on ships that are only going to explode eventually. And your dog died.

      Being a pirate sucks. It ain't worth it really. Best to hide in a large fleet and add your .05% dps to the primary. Again and again. Who wants to rely on themselves and a small group of dedicated killers, thieves and malcontents?

      You'd have to be crazy.

      I must be. Especially to do this all over again. Angor and I started Lucifer's Hammer alone down in Syndicate almost three years ago. In less than six months we had 30+ members and three other Corporations in our Alliance. And now, here we go again. Heck, back then it wasn't even going to be a "pirate" corporation! I had positive sec status back then! But we kept having roams into Low-Sec and enjoying ourselves. The bug bit and bit hard. And while I'd always flirted around with the pirating life from time to time, I finally gave in and haven't turned back since.

      If you are still reading this then maybe that spark exists down in your soul as well. Or maybe it has been burning there all along, for years. Or its been trampled by one bad experience or another. Let me spell it out for you.

      Stay Frosty is not a response to anything that has happened before. It is what is happening now. Casual solo and small-gang pirating without pressure, dictatorial rules and regulations, without blues and without stoopid childish lectures, CTAs, and demands to "be on comms!!". You want to be on comms? Great. You want to fly around in silence? Great. You want to type? Great. ( Seriously, I think comms are the best way of course, but really? BC in Belt 5.1 Go. Is really 90% of what we have to say. That and gtfo! )

      The Corporate hanger is stocked with Frigates. We honor 1v1s and Ransoms. (And we believe our Corp mates FIRST, no matter what.) The proof is in space, the rest is bullshit. We undock, we play, we fight and we laugh at our enemies as their ships explode. And we laugh when ours explode. We laugh a lot.

      Because this is a internet spaceship game.

      Why would you join? Because you've been smiling to yourself while reading this.

      Stay Frosty."

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    8. I suppose that's your way of saying you're done with this lil dog and pony show. Alrighty, fair enough. I've been over it for a few days now as I came to terms with what I want from my own EVE experience. A little structure is not a bad thing, Rixx. Neither is a bit of seriousness in your pvp. I would have sent you a mail apologizing for my lack of grace had this gone some other way, but whatev, you got two blog posts out of it.

      Just think about that time before Stay Frosty though, when a corporation you admired let you down, when your disappointment was palpable, when you had to figure out how to move past that and grow up a little. Veterans often forget what it's like to be new and enamored with EVE. I hope you haven't.

      See you in space o7

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  8. I don't understand all this e-honor bs. Once someone leaves a corp, he leaves behind all his attachments to it. You can't expect your former corp mates to not attack you, neither can they expect the same from you. If you wanted that then you should have stayed with them.

    When I was in SF I had a lot of fun. After a while I got bored and decided to leave also due to RL. However, I found extreme fun to fight my former SF fellows and I still do. In the end, it's all a game and it should be fun. Taking e-honor too seriously ruins that all.

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    1. We fight sometimes. And I think you also know that if you need help you can ask for it. I remember having you in gangs many times after you left. I think of all former members who left on good terms as friends of the corp. But they aren't in corp anymore, so that makes them potentially targets. Doesn't seem that hard to grasp.

      And good to see you back in space btw.

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  9. Thanks Rixx. Yes, actually I already grouped with a few SF to kill some targets. It has been good so far :)

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