I've had my own challenges with this in my own Eve career. Just this week ABA parted ways with NER over this issue and went our separate ways. Once, years ago, I had Eve running in my office when an employee walked in at the same time someone on comms (which had been silent) suddenly yelled, "Faggot!" at full volume. That took some explaining and has contributed greatly to my personal aversion to using comms. I've been burnt many times. My children, two of whom are special needs, have been insulted. And every other epitaph known to man has been used against me at one time or another. Sometimes with my children in the next room.
All of this to set the stage for the following Guest Post.
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The Hard Work Ahead: The Catch-22 of Toxicity in Corp Culture
by Guillome Renard
In discussions with the leadership of my former corporation about toxic language, there was a tension that was identified between the amalgam of security, activity, and content on the one hand, and positive culture on the other. The argument in favor of retaining toxic people was, essentially this: “we need their presence in X timezone/activity/hosting/skills or we'll get sieged out/lose prominence/failscade/bad things.” Corp leadership would often express sympathy for the offended members of the corp - women and minorities mostly - but shrug their shoulders and insist that nothing practical could be done without endangering the corp.
This is not the real Catch-22, however. This is just a convenient illusion that people use to avoid doing the hard work of creating positive culture. It’s not a deliberate obfuscation, either - these people actually believe this tension exists, but it doesn't. There is a tension, however, and it's subtle.
A year ago, my old corp had four women, out of 200ish characters. Today it has none. Two were thrown out, one quit EVE because she was tired of being angry and frustrated when she was trying to have fun (remember this sentiment, you'll see it again soon), and I'm not sure about the fourth, she was mostly in a different timezone from me. Rape jokes, homophobic slurs, misogyny, and apologism for these and more all took their toll, day to day. After a couple of threadnaughts the corp did do away with the term ‘rapecage’ as well as racially-based slurs, but language like ‘faggot’ and the subtler forms of misogyny were permitted to continue unchecked (and indeed unexamined).
The third, though, the one who left because she was tired of feeling demeaned, tired of being reminded that the world considered her a second class citizen, was well liked by the membership of the corp from what I saw. There weren't any cases of direct harassment, either. Such things would've swiftly been dealt with. In fact, I feel quite confident that the people who were making her experience so miserable had absolutely no idea they were doing so. I believe this about them, despite having told them that their behavior had such an effect myself, despite /her/ telling them as much, and despite others still telling them the same thing. Such is the power of human denial.
The last woman in the corp was kicked out, ostensibly for 'not being sufficiently engaged' when she was on. Even those sympathetic to the fact that women get shit piled on them day in and day out will buckle when 'she isn't sufficiently engaged with corp activities' comes out. Internet personality, math geek, and artist Vi Hart nails this phenomenon in one tweet:
We'd welcome women, but they just don't seem interested in our shithole of sexism. Their brains must be wired to not like sexist shitfests.
— Vi Hart (@vihartvihart) December 29, 2014
The blame is always laid on the people driven out - never on the people doing the driving.THIS is the real Catch-22: Attracting diverse people to the corp requires a non-toxic player group, and getting a non-toxic player group requires attracting diverse people to the corp. So long as this circle is allowed to exist - so long as people continue to allow corrosive, toxic atmosphere (and people) to dishearten people - corp culture in EVE (or anywhere else, for that matter) will not improve.
I am very sympathetic to people who look upon these issues and recognize that something is wrong, but don't feel like anything can be done to help. That was me, three years ago. There's plenty of ink spilled on the internet about what you can and should be doing already, but not much of that is EVE-specific, so I'm going to focus on what you can do in your EVE corp.
You can listen, and you should. Huge swaths of toxic language goes on simply because it's reflexive for us. We don't even realize we're doing it. I sure didn't, until a couple of years ago. Once you look for this stuff, you'll start seeing it everywhere, and that awareness will do a lot of the curbing on it's own.
You can confront it, and you should. It feels like drama (because it is drama), and it's exhausting, often thankless work. But consider this: as miserable as you feel stepping up - you have the option not to. The folks to whom this stuff is toxic don't have a choice, and this is their every day. Personally, I don't know how they cope - just a couple of days of heated threadnaught at my old corp would completely exhaust me.
You can lead, and you should. Remember that folks to whom this stuff is toxic have learned, from repeated experiences, that speaking up gets them nothing but trouble, flames, and witch hunts. You'll see plenty of this when you confront it. If you're in leadership, you need to ask yourself: is this person disengaged from the corp because they're a bad fit for whatever you do? Or are they disengaged because there's a toxic atmosphere that alienates them? If its legitimately the former, then maybe they shouldn't be in your corp. If it's the latter - they aren't the problem and tossing them out won't solve the problem. If you're not in leadership, you may find yourself facing blowback or inaction from leadership. At that point, you need to walk away. Remaining, unless you're going to confront this stuff, becomes tacit endorsement in the eyes of both the victims and the perpetrators.
There are places in EVE where positive culture is the norm. Many of them are not perfect, I'm sure. To be honest, the corp I've recently left is doing better than many others I've encountered - just not enough for me to be comfortable staying there. This notion that toxic people have to be tolerated because without them we don't have enough pilots is hogwash - the only people who need that to be the paradigm are the toxic people themselves.
PS FROM RIXX: As always I demand civility in discourse here on Eveoganda. Any hateful, vile, hurtful, or otherwise ignorant language will be deleted. The final judge of which is me.
Comments
To All:
Toxicity such as described in this blogpost is hurting everyone. Including those being toxic. Those being toxic are often the first to complain that Eve is dieing. It is not dieing because of any other reason than your level of toxicity. Eve isn't dieing, it is being slowly murdered! Whatever reason you have to hate, I urge everyone to keep that hate focused to in game reasons. Hate because your enemy is a Goon or NC. Hate because your enemy is a pirate. Hate because your opponent is Amarrian or Minmatar. Hate as a character, not the person behind the character.
As such, I extend an open invitation to any and all who have found toxicicity to come and have a conversation with those of us in A Band Apart. We accept all of your intrinsic qualities. We accept you, power player who plays twelve hours a day. We accept you, extreme casual player who only has an hour a week to devote to Eve. We accept you no matter what age you are, just act as a reasonable person. The quality we will not accept is the toxic hate as described in the blog. We have many corporations, each with its own play style and areas of interest. You will find every link you need to reach us here on Eveoganda.
But okay let's get to it and "widen" your perspective as you are not smarter as a bunch of sticks.
First of i would like to introduce something i call the "Tarantino" Arguement
You may want to take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWPFzlsGI3c
If you dont have a grasp where the original is from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0SowB3CGtY now given this conversation that took place in 1992 when you just learned that your penis can do more then spray yellow water, i would assume you would consider a cult classic with an IMDB Rating of 8.4 a Toxic Product of our Culture #SOADBornInToxicity. But be honest its a great fucking movie, and given the previous youtubelink even the gay community made fun out of it and apperently enjoyed it.
So before i go into a long ass rant. Suck it up, if your mind is to unstable to handle and process words and they remind you of your personal problems, you should start fixing your shit before you think about indoctrinating the believes of others, otherwise you are useful as classic medival religion.
In the study of linguistics, we see that words over time do change. This is because nothing is static. We also have seen how certain words have been very easy to change to a negative connotation yet are very difficult to change away from that negativity. In your example, the "Tarantino" effect (which if you would care to look into how theory works, you will see claiming something does not make it true) one movie maker is not better suited to socially comment on linguistics than the whole of mankind.
There is nothing stopping you from using toxic language if you like. Just keep in mind, this type of language will restrict who associates with you and in the most extreme case, can be considered verbal assault with an attached charge of hate crime.
My perspective does not need widened. My perspective is as wide as the universe, though the converse may need to happen. You, good sir, may need to widen your perspective because you take offense at what educated, respectful people have to say.
If you care to try again, I urge you to consider the opposing side before speaking. Any argument made for or against one stance must be met with thoughtful critique, consideration of opposing viewpoints and empirical fact.
The level of toxicity in EvE was one of the major reasons I walked away for 3 months. It's also the reason why I do not recommend the game to any of my friends; I want them to stay my friends. I certainly wouldn't advise any of the women I know to play the game.
The only reason I came back was because I happened, through a blog, to stumble on a amall group that seemed like they were low enough on the asshole meter that I might be able to ignore it. Happily, I found they were at zero on the asshole meter.
But I got very, very lucky.
Regarding the so called Tarantino argument, context is everything. Your example is a work of art intending to tell a story and convey a certain mood. The language used is intended to provide characterization, namely that these are professional criminals with all the background that would entail.
So, if the language you wish to use has the same purpose then you have every right to be upset, but 99.9% of the garbage i've heard on comms is intended for laughs at someones expense, or to prove how cool and edgy the speaker is. Lucky for you there are hundreds of corps across new eden that will allow you to spout off in exactly the manner you desire. But for many of us there comes a point where it isn't new, it isn't funny, and it isn't creative. Rampant use of toxic language is tiring, demonstrates your inability to usefully contribute and, since it results in running off people personally impacted by the language, means you are a net drag to any corp that actually values diversity and a pleasant atmosphere.
In short, if you were in my corp I'd kick you with out a second thought.
There are silent legions out there begging for corps where they can just do what they find fun in EVE where no one belittles them for being a miner/industrialist/PVPer, etc and where comms pass the small children can hear it test.
A Tarantino film (Which btw is what A Band Apart is named after) is a great example of art serving time and place extremely well. It would be difficult if not impossible to make a film like that without using those words. Or a film about Slavery without using the N word. Or a film about the Holocaust without the Holocaust in it. Etc. Time and place - and context.
And this is where hate comes in. Hate's time and place is the NOW. It's context is happening as words are being uttered. As people are being beheaded. As bullies are bullying, rapist are raping, and the world crumbles in violence. The context is immediate. That is what transforms art into hate. And any rational, intelligent human being immediately knows the difference between those two states of being.
But the person that knows the difference the most, is the victim. And, in my opinion, the final decision about what is and isn't hate - is left to the victim to decide.
I am an extremely tolerant person. I rarely use profanity in conversation. Kurt Vonnegut once said that “profanity and obscenity entitle people who don't want unpleasant information to close their ears and eyes to you.” And that is no way to have a conversation.
They do NOT have a right to the acceptance of that hate, nor to immunity to the consequences (like getting tossed out of social circle after social circle) of those actions. You can say it. But I don't have to respect it, or you for it. A lot of people seem to miss that important nuance.
I like to think that I am a tolerant person, but I do use words that I shouldn't in moments of anger or fear. I am human after all. We make mistakes. We learn from mistakes. In the past, I have used much of the language that we are talking about here today. Why? I did it to fit in. I did it out of anger. I did it because I simply did. Age has a way of showing us the errors in our ways. I, personally, hate the liberal PC language that others feel they should force upon us. I do not hate when there is a legitimate reason for it. For instance, the word retard was widely used as an insult when I was a child. I am guilty of using it. I reasoned that everyone else is, so it was OK for me to as well. That word does have legitimate uses, but there is no way that anyone can rationalize using it as a name for someone.
Eighty years ago, if you were Jewish, you were simply a person of Jewish ancestry. In a very short time, that was changed to be a very bad thing. All these years later, we still hear it thrown around as a pejorative term. Words do change, but as I stated, it is much harder to change them back once used negatively.
Eve is a game! It is a form of entertainment! It is not just my entertainment, nor is it just your entertainment. It is for all who play! The level of toxicity in Eve is keeping it from being considered a mainstream game. Yes, New Eden is a dark and dangerous place where anything can happen. There person sitting outside the game is NOT sitting in New Eden though. They are sitting in the same world that you live in. We all need to consider who is on the other end of the keyboard. Empathy is a characteristic that we should all display, even while we are raging against our opponents for holding a system we want, or even for the fun of it. As I said, it is OK to hate the Amarr as a Minmatar or for the Goons to hate NC. We just need to keep in mind that the person at the computer is not in fact Amarrian. He is not, in fact, the NC. He or she is simply a person trying to escape from the world, from their personal problems, from the rigor of work for a bit! It is OK to treat them as such, because someday, it may be you trying to escape from something in real life.
Post script: This is in reply to Rixx, but not directed at Rixx. That is just my writing style.
If it offends you very well but perhaps EVE isn't for you
Prejudice in response to prejudice is not the answer. I am sure you have heard the phrase, "two wrongs don't make a right", correct? This is akin to blaming the victim in a hate crime. This is nothing more than rationalization intended to make the behavior acceptable. There is no empowerment in using words that have a very negative affect on some as a way to make yourself or your friends feel better about themselves. The perpetrator is not the victim when they have done something that is not acceptable.
We all play the same game. As such, we all share in this world we have created. Using divisive speech as a claim for unity is a patently false idea. I have been playing this game for almost 8 years now. I have seen groups come and go. One thing that will always kill any group is the use of this type of language that demeans. If, in the terms of Eve, we are not growing as a corporation, we are dieing as a corporation. You can justify that the groups that use this type of language are "elite" as they weed out those who can't handle it, but I guarantee that there is some intrinsic value of you that could be considered less than desirable to other groups. This phenomenon has a name, it is called eugenics in the real world.
Eve is not a game for everyone. If someone wants to try this game that I do hold dearly in my life, I believe they should be given every opportunity to try. They should be nurtured in their pursuit. Doing anything otherwise, will only harm the game. One player that can "handle" the name calling and toxic atmosphere is still only one subscription. The other nine who do not like it will take their money else where. CCP and us, the players, lose out when that happens. If you like Eve, you should want to see CCP thrive in making money because that money will go back into making Eve better!
My last thought is that if you are offended when the average person gets offended by something that is offensive, perhaps society is not a place for you. This, Eve and society, is not a place where one person matters more than the rest. This is not a place where even a moderately sized group who is vocal matter more. This is not a place where even the majority are immune to the effects they provide to the minority.
It is this kind of logic that makes me sick to think that I offered up my life to protect people to spew hate. You know what though, I would still do it because my ideals transcend the hate. My ability to sacrifice myself for others, even those who would reject my ideals, is what will be remembered in history. Speech is not free! It was paid for with the lives of those who believe that we should be allowed to speak freely, even when those men and women would never utter a syllable of hatred against another.
I've found that the only somewhat working solution is banning all kind of relaxed speech. No jokes, no ironic terms, only professional terms like "jump", "X is primary", "damps on logies" and so on, like in a workplace. Of course this make comms very sterile and "unfun".
As my alliancemates and I are discussing, it is not the initial behavior that sparks a confrontation. If you are politely asked to refrain from one specific behavior and immediately "double down" (as one of my alliancemates calls it) on that behavior there is no way one can claim to be unaware of what you are doing. In our issues with this in ABA, we asked the like minded individuals to keep their antics to their own channels and in their own group. If they want to act that way, who are we to stop them, yet they refused to respect anyone else by ignoring our requests to keep it where it belongs.
"hey guys it's cool if I insult you because I know, that you know, that I know these are offensive and I don't really mean them"
Newsflash, you're still offensive.
Like being the individual advocating your beliefs, you will likely not be seen as someone wanting to change current culture for good but as someone who is creating conflict which shines you in a negative light.
It sucks for people who mean well but sometimes you have to go off and create your own community and try to spread good will from there.
So yeah, standing up alone works.
The problem is that New Eden and our own real universe are intertwined at the player behind the keyboard. That is where the two meet, at each and everyone of us. We, the players, form the universe. No amount of role playing or rationalization should ever make it acceptable to bring real life issues into New Eden. There are people of every classification you can think of playing this game. This game transcends nationality, it transcends politics, it transcends race and gender! This is our community. We have a very small community. As a community, we should consider everyone who plays as part of our fellowship. I don't know about anyone else, but I want to see my community thrive. I want to see my community grow! The only way we can that is by accepting those who want to join our community.
How do we accept those that want to join? By not driving them away by appearing to be hateful. I accept that there are people out there who will use offensive language. I accept that there are people out there that will disagree with every word I say. If others want that type of toxic group, I accept that, but they need to accept that they will not grow past being just that, a toxic group.
This behavior is created by the larger societal tendency to assign victim status to every minor annoyance, and to allow certain groups (such as women) or even subsets of those groups that claim to speak for them (such as feminists) to assign that victim status based only on their own personal feelings with no debate.
I've seen the other side of this too - corp comms with overly sensitive members claiming that we don't need to talk about totally noncontroversial subjects because they might conceivably be offensive to someone somehow. Females who out of the blue launch into lectures about feminist imaginings about how awful men are, or who talk loudly about making out with various corp members, their own boob size, and granting people sexual favors but then whine about being seen as a "sex object".
Before you talk too much about offensive chat, look at what you're doing. Are you really targeting offensive speech about "faggots" and "rapecages" or are you extending it into using it as a platform to advance your own views? Are you really just looking for an excuse to expound on feminism, or whatever other liberal topic amuses you (and in EVE, it's always liberals doing this even if that's not the case elsewhere in life.
Because while you may not want to hear about rape cages, other people do not want to hear a lot of bullshit about "how women are treated" or "misogyny" or "male privilege" or whatever idological theory you might happen to like - because it's political theory, not science. Science describes reality based on observation, and feminism and women's studies and other forms of professional victimhood studies are not in science departments for a reaon. It isn't the fundamentalists preaching on comms in EVE, it's the liberals. Clean your own act up first, because some of us agree with you but we don't want our internet spaceships turned into a forum for you to expound your politics.
And don't come back calling this "apologism" either. "Apologism" is code for "I'm afraid to confront counterarguments". People act this way because social justice types have proven they cannot engage in rational discourse, so you may as well just get the kicks of offending them. don't be a social justice advocate.
They do it on purpose because so frequently the person that is objecting to "rape cage" today is complaining about "treating women as sex objects" tomorrow because someone said some actress is hot. If you want to demand people stop being offensive, you better be prepared to demand that those being equally offensive by demonizing other people as hatemongers and shaming them for having normal male sex drive have the same demands on them.
Do you truly believe that science is the only way to assess the world around us? I love science, but science can only explain so much. When we talk about ideologies and political theory, that is not science. Those are philosophies. Do you know what gave birth to science? Philosophers. Care to know how I know that? I am a philosopher and I have studied the history of philosophy.
I reject your assumption that "social justice" types cannot engage in rational discourse. I have proven rather extensively today that rational discourse is the only currency I am trading with. I am not here to expound my politics. If I were, you would know it. No one can deny that EvE has an extremely nasty reputation. We are part of one of the most unregulated games when it comes to what behavior we can engage in. As such, we need to regulate ourselves. If you find it acceptable to belittle others because they do not like a specific term (mot of which people would not speak of in polite company) then there is little anyone will do to change your mind.
I am not speaking for anyone but myself. I believe we can have conflict in this game without it getting personal. You mention women on comms talking about various sexual behaviors. Have you considered that may be a cry for help? Perhaps that person has a reason why they are talking about that goes beyond a need for attention from immature gamers. If you are getting a lecture on feminism, you should probably pay attention because there is a reason you are hearing it. If that person had been treated with respect, and I don't mean extra respect because she is a woman, just the basic respect that every human being deserves, you wouldn't be hearing that lecture.
Yes, it is rather inconvenient that so many types of hatred all have their own name. How inconvenient for those that practice hate as a way of life. I feel so sorry for those that have to keep up their studies of how to hate on various groups or persons. My how you must suffer having to deal with "overly sensitive" people. Use a little logic! All of your complaints are erroneous! If offending people is so much fun, you seem to really get offended when you have to listen to the other side of the argument. Hmm. That's right, let's get our "kicks offending you"! Hate is offensive, someone explaining to you why hate is offensive is not. Yes, we should just put up with the hatred because it is part and parcel of the EvE community. That is probably one of the stupidest ideas that anyone could espouse. If you haven't noticed, this is not about misogyny. This is about hatred in general. I know, reading comprehension is hard! There are many other terms beside misogynistic ones that are used in EvE and we take offense to them all. Trying to down play it as politics or a personal misunderstanding centered on the victim is a straw man argument. Hate is hate. There is no way to explain that away.
The only thing I am trying to expound here is that hate is hate, it doesn't matter what name you give it or who it is aimed at. Perhaps it is time we decide to grow up and stop hating and accept that there are people who do not want to listen to hate anymore.
Post script: I am posting under my character name. Posting as anonymous only proves that one is not willing to use rational discourse but will hide behind anonymity.
The wanton destruction or spoiling of a place. Sounds a lot like what a rapecage is intended to accomplish, right?
Do not equivocate asking for offensive behavior to stop as being offensive. This is not how logic works. This is not how decency works. Not that it matters, but if someone were being annoying with demonizing others to the point of offensiveness, I would also ask that they stop also. Expecting a modicum of decency in no way can be considered offensive.
So, we see that ignoring what others have to say is not a viable option after all. Words have meaning and when used hatefully words can hurt more than any stick or stone!
Step 1) Explain to your mother what a rapecage is and what it's context in EvE is.
Step 2) Reason with her why it is appropriate to call this particular tactic a rapecage.
Step 3) Ask her if your rationalization and nomenclature are permissible.
Yah, Racism is really just point of view now that you mention it.
Anonymous' attempt to offer some kind of 'more legitimate cultural meaning' than literally the rest of the human race are pathetic - and here I can't even grant the charity that these two don't know what they're up to.
No, I'm actually objecting to the offensive, racist, homophobic language. What you choose to believe is your business. What politics you have is your business. How you treat others, on the other hand? That becomes others' business.
Then they said: "Because while you may not want to hear about rape cages, other people do not want to hear a lot of bullshit about "how women are treated" or "misogyny" or "male privilege" or whatever idological theory you might happen to like - because it's political theory, not science."
It actually is science. As a PhD candidate in Law and Policy, I have a rather rigorous background in methods of statistical analysis - it's part of being someone who studies these things. Crime data is empirical data. Other forms of studying various phenomena are also empirical. Sorry, but this stuff /is/ verifiable. That you choose not to believe it when the information is put there is your business.
But let us suppose that you're right (to be perfectly clear, you're not, but I'll humor you). Then if I have to shut up because you're offended by my views - then you have to shut up when I'm offended by yours. You don't get to play a morality that says A gets to shit on B, but B can't shit on A, which is what you're going after here.
Finally they say: "And don't come back calling this "apologism" either."
Don't worry. You're not engaging in apologism. You're engaging in illogical bullshit. They are very different things.
The English language is changing and it's time to keep up. You politically correct people are what is wrong with the world.
I am not politically correct. I will call something on face value. You know what though, face value does not mean using disparaging words. There are a lot of deluded people here, but those of abhorring this toxic culture are holding the moral high ground. We are using logical arguments to refute any attempt to rationalize hate.
One thing that we really haven't broached yet is the fact that most outward directed hate is actually someone projecting their hate of the self onto others as a way to sooth that pain. Hate as vehement as what we see in our game can only be caused by insecurity. What that insecurity is, I couldn't say. It will be different to each person. This makes me sad. I empathize with people that are hurting so bad that they lash out at others.
Recently I left a player corp that had many people I was happy to call friends because of a couple people that wanted political correctness only when it suited them or their interests.
calling people out is fine, as long as its consistent and applies just as much to you as to the people you are calling out. most of the distaste I have for both groups of people on either side of "feminism/male privelige/rape culture" arguments (or whatever you would like to call them) is that neither side is usually willing to take a good hard look at themselves and how they act, instead of other people.
Tia
Just because you personally are uncomfortable with vulgar speech, it doesnt mean others feel the same. Stop projecting your own values on others, stop demanding that others conform to your views. You know - tolerance and stuff.
Women and other people who belong to the groups that are traditionally being perceived as discriminated within gamer culture need to come into the social aspect of the game without the preconceived that they are going to or should be offended. When you show that you can ignore toxic people or bite them back when they bite you, you will have earned the respect of your corpmates if they are worth your presence in their group.
Find better space friends.
Maybe you should be working instead of playing video games at your employers expense.
Why some people assign sexually-charged terminology to what supposed to be a military operation?
Rape is rape. When Tarantino uses rape, he uses actual rape, down to detail.
When we talk about say, Stalingrad, or Falaise Pocket or any event when one army got immobilized and (almost) destroyed we do not use term rape without sounding like drooling idiot. The only proper and acceptable use of the term is about how many participants got sexually assaulted.
When rape is used in context of eve, the only sexual value is one assigned by the ones making connection in their minds.
Now I do not know about majority of you, but I do have a problem flying with people that get hard-on when blowing up internet spaceships. This is not about using particular words, but having to deal with mentally disturbed/sex-obsessed/adolescent individuals (no matter the actual age), that are inherently unreliable.
Second, most of the people who do leave for "toxic" reasons never say it offends them in the first place. They just sit there listening to this sort of chatter they dislike and do NOTHING to say they dislike it or to raise awareness to them being offended by it. Few people take a stand to announce discomfort.
The other fact that you have obviously missed is that we are not calling for people to not use the language they want, we are calling for a temperament of publicly and openly using hateful speech to hurt others, even unintentionally. The phrase, "engage brain before engaging mouth" comes to mind. As I said, I am not uncomfortable with vulgar speech. I have been around it for a good portion of my adult life. I have used vulgar speech. What I am not comfortable with, and what everyone who plays this game should be uncomfortable with, is the fact that there is a direct correlation to hateful words and our game!
I am not advocating for Hello Kitty Online, I want to see another ten years of EvE that only happens one way, by removing the toxic atmosphere that we, and I do mean everyone when I say we, have created here.
Using respectful speech when dealing someone you don't know, does not take any extra work. Actually, I should amend that. Using respectful speech, not hateful words takes no extra work for the ordinary average person, some of you it will take a little extra work, when they are dealing with someone that they do not know!
"So what?"
"What are you going to do about it?! I demand not to be offended!"
"Nothing!"
"But I am OFFENDED!"
....
Everybody has a right to offend. :)
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. +1 for literalism
1) It is the offended persons fault they are offended.
2) It's not offensive (equivocation of meaning).
3) It is offensive to tell someone you are offended which imparts a right to be offensive further.
4) HTFU or as I like to call it "I'm edgier than you and you are weak" argument.
5) We have always been offensive.
6) It's fun.
7) We are using offensive words to fight offensive words (my personal favorite so far).
8) It is part of our culture.
9) No one likes liberal social justice.
Each of the above reasons has absolutely no merit in as an argument to defend hate. Everyone that is advocating for the use of hateful words needs to take a long look inside themselves. There is obviously something in your life that is or has happened to make you into such a hateful person. The most important thing though, is that you can each change and heal. Those of us who are advocating for a less toxic environment do not hate you. We do not despise you. We accept that there is a reason for this behavior. We have pity for you and above all, we would like to help you.
It is never ok to be hateful towards someone because of their intrinsic qualities. Women are people too, homosexuals are people too, and people on the Autism Spectrum Disorder scale are people too! We don't need to hate because of nationality, nor do we need to hate because of ethnic backgrounds. We can learn to accept each person for who they are and we can learn to be respectful to others as human beings. When we use hateful speech, we are not just hurting that one individual, you are hurting everyone who is a person.
As I stated earlier, I don't care if you want to speak freely. Just remember that in doing so, there will be consequences. Normal rational people will not like you and your friendships will suffer. This game that we play will suffer. That is what I do not want to see, anyone suffering because of words. Words that have no place in our culture of EvE! You are all part of MY community. I do not want to see anyone suffer, offender or offended, in MY community.
But I completely agree with you that we should be more careful and respectful when talking to people whom we do not know. I would consider that automatic. The main issue here (and the one about which is the original post) is when some third person is offended when people who are familiar with each other and do not consider such speech offensive use some words among themselves.
Lets imagine a situation when two friends from UK, Luke and Mark, talk about having a fag. None of them considers it least bit offensive. But what about Matthew, who might be from US and hear them talking? Should he be offended even tho he is not being talked to? Should he be offended even tho fag isnt used as anything hurtful or hateful? Should Matthew go on and chastise Luke and Mark for persecuting male homosexuals? And what about when Luke calls Mark a cunt for not having a lighter and they both have a laugh about it? Should Matthew be offended now on behalf all women?
2) that somebody does not know actual meaning nor connotation (decimation is form of punishment inflicted among soldiers themselves not by enemy) does not mean I need to endorse him using it.
3) overemphasising is different than using different value set. Boss "killing" you means that thinks will get nasty nevertheless. Now compare to " boss will facerape me".
Few people take a stand because they faced enough hate and do not want to face more!
Let's look at this theory:
People who fling insults, slurs, and whatever else at each other are 'mature' or 'adult.'
People who show respect to one another are 'unstable' or, presumably 'immature.'
Guys, I figured it out. Herrbert is Benjamin Button! (Sorry for the dox man, but it's so obvious.)
What you're missing, in your argument, is context. On corpwide comms, yes, I would expect Matthew to confront that language. In a private channel, the imperative is greatly reduced. People seem to think that corpwide, alliancewide, of fleetwide comms are private comms. They seem to think the same about local, for that matter. This is when "talking rough" becomes a problem.
Aussies use 'cunt' as a term of endearment, and it has - I have been told - a different meaning in the U.K. and Aus than here in the US where it's a derogatory term for the vagina. That's a cultural thing I have had to learn. 'Having a fag' is similarly a cultural thing. "Let's go kill those fags" is a thing I've heard a lot of U.K. and Aus folks say as wel - and now we're not talking cigarettes anymore. So how the term is used is also an important factor. This is not a blanket rule of 'never use the letters f, a, and g, in that order.' This is a 'stop using implied homosexuality as the way you denigrate or demean someone.' And what you do in private, with people who don't care, TBH, I couldn't care less about. You do yourself a disservice in my eyes, but at least you're not corroding the experience of EVE Online for others.
There's a ton of well documented subjects that people need to STFU about: Sexual orientation, race, gender, religion, &c. This isn't rocket science.
And it's not like you're suddenly a horrible person if you slip up now and again - we all do it. What matters is that when someone says "Hey, that's really fucking offense, knock that shit off." You say "oh, didn't realize. Sorry about that." And we're done. Instead, as you can see from this thread, people get all puffed up and go "WELL YOU'RE JUST IMMATURE I HAVE RIGHTS HARGLEGBLARGLE." Because apparently quickly apologizing for a mistake is just too damned difficult.
Also, you should stop using 'literally'.
We are human, we make mistakes. If no one says anything about it, then by all means feel free to make the same mistake. Eventually, someone will speak up about it. It is PERSONAL RESPONIBILITY to try and work with that individual who is offended. We are not asking anyone to change their ways in private, just when dealing with people who may not like the hateful speech that gets tossed around.
Again, as I said earlier in this endeavor, keep it where it belongs. If you are asked to keep it tasteful then is it really that much work for one to do so? I don't know how many of the people defending this type of behavior have kids, but put yourself (I know, it's hard to think like something you are not) in the place of being a parent. Would you want your daughter to treated this way? Would you want your homosexual son or daughter to be treated this way? If the answer is anything but no, I suggest you seek immediate professional help because you have issues that run much deeper than behavior in a game.
This fight will never be won by either side, but I will consider it a win if one person reads this and decides that they do not have to play this game by any others set of rules.
For those who disagree with the line that we are holding, your freedom to spew hate is nothing more than a side effect of what the men and women around the world have fought for. This particular right of hatred and vile speech is not what they fought for, but they accepted this cost for what is right.
At the least, those of you who want to spread a message of hate should consider this argument. If you are playing this game, it only stands to reason that you enjoy it. If you do enjoy it, you should want to keep playing it. If you create an atmosphere so toxic that new players will not join and older players will leave, you will lose what you enjoy. Protect your enjoyment by tempering your words with the smallest bit of basic human decency!
I frankly find it ridiculous that you become so inflamed and self-righteous about bad words in a niche game among consenting adults. You should steer clear from british TV panel shows, you would probably get a heart attack from the amount of F-bombs, C-bombs and all other kinds of alphabetical bombs which are thrown among oxbridge educated adults on national broadcasts. Or maybe people like Stephen Fry really are immature, unintelligent, hateful minority-bashers who condone violence...
As a corp, alliance, and low-level community leader, I have found myself occasionally dealing with issues of language in coms and the negative effects of toxic personalities. Fortunately, these moments are rare for us, as we set out from the beginning to be a positive, welcoming, friendly and classy culture. By doing so, we attract others who desire to be a part of such a culture to join us, which further strengthens our cultural norm of respectful language and discourse.
It is a shame that your old corp has recently had issues of toxicity and has no women in it. My alliance currently has 18 women (out of about 85 RL people), and we routinely have women joining our public roams, often mentioning that they enjoy our public roams because our coms are generally free of hot-button words, porn links are non-existant in fleet chat (well, we get a lot of food porn - especially chocolate cake!), we keep things classy and because we do so, those who join us, do so also.
Sure, there's the occasional curse word, and even the occasional use of a "hot button" word, but it's rare and rarely is it used to attack or belittle another. Tone of voice and context determines whether or not it was just being lazy in choice of words or meant to offend, and when things cross the line, the community tends to self-regulate and self-police; it's incredibly rare when I have to go into sergeant mode and put my foot down.
Anyways, the point I'm getting to is simple: If you want to attract classy people to your corp/alliance, create a classy environment. If you want to attract trolls and haters, create a troll-filled and hate-filled environment.
Or as my mom used to say... if you want to live in dirt, don't clean your room ;)
READ. The words I use are not that difficult to understand. I actually like British television. The entertainers and panelists certainly do use a wide variety of words that fall into what we are talking about here, but those they are talking to accept the use of those words. When someone does not accept the use of those words, those entertainers and panelist will back down and speak civilly to one another. That is the problem, everyone here advocating that the use of any language they deem admissible will not back down from using that language. They will intensify it. That is the fundamental difference between us.
I fully support your right to speak as you like, that doesn't give you the right to go on offensive rants directed at someone you are speaking to for the sheer thrill of being insulting to them. You should now understand what I am saying. Hateful speech does not give one the right to simply use it to demean others at your whim.
What I do take issue with, and which I have been arguing about is the use of slurs. Racial slurs. Gender slurs. Sexual slurs or any other type of slur! I could care less if any of you want to drop F-bombs every other word. In fact, if someone were offended by that I wouldn't make a big deal about it. I would think we could respect each other enough to refrain from talking like that if we had to, but qualitatively, these words are no where near as hurtful or hateful as using a slur against someones intrinsic qualities. We have thrown around a lot of words in here, but it is the extremely hurtful ones that I take issue with in. I am thinking that we may not have framed our premises tightly enough to properly understand each others sides.
Like I said, cursing is one thing, but it is entirely different when we use slurs!
I personally don't find anything wrong with curse words per se, but do find someone whose every other word is a curse word a bore and tedius to listen to, because the "noise" of all the cursing 'causes you to lose what they are talking about, if that makes sense.
On our public roams, we discourage it (but also don't make a big deal or federal case out of it) because we don't know who is 14 and has their parents listening in, we don't know who has a 10-year-old in the room listening, we don't know who finds cursing offensive for religious or personal reasons, etc. It's just a matter of respect, in my humble opinion.
Even if you did, statistics are not themselves an indication of causality.
Wbat you are doing is what the vasy majority of this thread is about - question-begging. You are simply reiterating that offensive things are offensive because they are offensive because you say so or something.
The fact remains that feminism is not a science, just like statistics is not in the math department for a reason. Stop assuming that because something offends you, or offends some group, that its offensive. What's truly offensive is the use of hate labels to suppress discussion.
Absolutely beautifully stated!
About that, my wife show me that one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWsnRx3EzF0
As a social scientist I have to point out that you are conflating quite a few things there. Indeed, all science *attempts* to describe reality based on observation (all scientists get things wrong regularly). That holds true for social science just as much as for the natural sciences. In fact, the difference you see in actual scientific paradigms is between rational and empirical. Empirical science indeed observes reality based on observation. Statistics, experiments etc. Rational science knows the concept of logical proof. For example, Einstein's Relativity Theory proves that certain relations are true mathematically. Quite few of them were even possible to prove empirically or observe in nature at the time he formulated his theory, only later we found ways to present empirical proof.
Social science may be way more fuzzy than that but it is no less scientific in its rigor. That being said, it is not liberals who generally put forward unfounded statements about social dynamics, rather it is conservatives who look at the results and settle for the fact that everything is right where it should be and woe us if we were ever to challenge that.
That last part is the very essence of all scientific thought, rational and empirical, to constantly re-evaluate your assumptions about the things you perceive and go on a neverending quest for the answers.
Thus it is the expression of stubborn conservative thought to imply that the EVE player community is fine as it is and should never change or even allow a discussion of its own nature.
Well, the last part I was usually going to do anyway in the past :D