The play-style environment that I love and enjoy is endangered. For the last few years we've seen one little change after another erode that environment. And, while none of these changes have been bad on their own, the cumulative effect is the same. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Luckily it is easy to re-balance the world and set things right. To give us a 'win' to encourage more PvP and set things on the right course again. We don't have to watch an entire species end up in a museum, or protected game reserves. We can stop the tide right now with two very easy, non-legacy code excuse, simple changes that MAKE PERFECT SENSE!!
And yes, just so we are clear, I am fully prepared to harp on these all year until someone comes to their senses. So CSM Candidates, get on-board with me and we'll work to get you elected.
The two things are:
1) If a ship is being boosted by a T3 in any capacity, that T3 needs to appear on the killmail of any target that ship explodes.
2) And Warp Core Stabilizers need to only work on certain types of ships, like Industrial and Transport class ships, as intended.
T3 Booster's on Killmails
Back in August of last year I wrote an impassioned and reasonable explanation about why this is needed. I understand that putting T3's on-grid is difficult and I appreciate that we may never ever see that happen. I also appreciate that CCP needs the extra income from multiple accounts, that some players need a security blankie, and that true change in the booster role may be decades away.
Which is where this change comes from. It is simple, elegant, and makes perfect sense. The ships that explode another ship should be on a killmail. If one Tristan explodes another Tristan, and the victor was being boosted by a Legion, then that Legion needs to appear on the km. This is not rocket science.
Part of the problem is the growing popularity of PvP videos and twitch accounts. If you are reading this and you don't have young children you may not realize just how freaking popular watching other people play games is. I'm shocked at how much my boys, 11, 10 and 9, watch other people play video games. I don't get it. But there it is. In our world that means Eve PvP which is often a Solo dood taking on incredible odds and winning fights that are the talk of the internets. But he isn't solo nine times out of ten. This is creating a false sense of what PvP is really like to our younger players. And setting expectations falsely high. I know, I run a 200 player PvP Corporation. Trust me.
Just put the ships on kms. Everything else remains the same. I'm not going to use the word "fair" because I don't believe in fair. But this comes pretty close.
WCS
I won't bore you with linking a previous rant about Warp Cores. I'm rather well known for my stance on these. It is incredible to me that this change is not already on the lips of every decent player in Eve. As more and more incredibly horrible fits with 4 or 7 or more WCS are linked and bantered about in the community - no one seems to care.
And again, this is an easy change. Heck, I understand the need for this module. I really do. My alt has a transport ship that has WCS's on it, because I use that ship to transport very expensive items thru space. I get it. And I understand that miners may want that security as well. I'm not here to ruin anyone's legitimate game.
But when something becomes abused it is a problem. And anyone that doesn't believe WCS are being abused is lying to themselves. To be honest I'd rather see the game mechanics that cause WCS to be used changed, but I'm trying to be understanding and make this as easy as possible.
So the solution is to make it so WCS can only be used on Industrial and Transport class ships. Period. Done. Problem solved.
See? That wasn't so bad and immediately Eve is a better game for it.
Let's make this happen.
PS: Another potential solution for the issue of WCS that keeps the mechanic's usefulness while rendering it useless in PvP: Fitting one or more to your ship renders all other modules except propulsion off-line.
Comments
There's a better fix to your problem of WCS ships in FW sites. Restricting peoples' choice to what you deem acceptable to fit to a given class of ship is not it.
Oh, and this is my blog and I get to write whatever crazy things I want. So awesome.
But I support a WCS for a different reason. It is rock/paper/scissors.
WCS ship escapes pvp ship
pvp ship defeats gank ship
gank ship defeats WCS ship
A triple scram fit (or double faction scram) fit ship catches WCS ship, but is vulnerable to a 'proper' pvp fit.
Hunters hate WCS. I get that.
But hunters don't hate WCS enough to fit accordingly.
My first faction warfare kill was against a WCS ship.
If WCS is such a blight, toughen up, and fit your ships to do something about it.
I DO NOT personally have a problem killing WCS fitted ships. I have never once said I did. I kill them all the time. Sometimes they have 7 of the damn things on them when they explode. So let's get over this "fit your ships to do something about it" argument.
I am against WCS because they are bad for Eve. That is the only reason.
They wouldn't be bad for Eve is EVERYONE used them, because then counters would be developed that would work and they'd go boom just like everyone else does. But this is not the case obviously. Not everyone uses them, so demanding that people "Fit their ships to counter them or shut up" is a spurious argument. Why should we be forced to do so when the module itself, and the game mechanics that make it a viable option, are the issue?
This argument has no merit in the real world and is simply an attempt to deflect from the real issue. Which remains.
There was a time when I was noob and did cosmos missions in Ihakana, the problem was that the NPC dropping the mission item was always camped and trying to blitz the objective didn't work.
Eventually I settled upon a drake with WCS, ignored the player shooting at me and managed to kill the single NPC, loot it and warp off before my ship exploded. I was solo, lacking in SP and the enemy was not alone.
When I abandoned nullsec and wanted to take my battleship(s) with me I was glad for the ability to fit a WCS and bypass that small gatecamp.
Let's say I am a solo player not interested in pvp but I do want to run low sec escalations of my high sec exploration sites (or hunt these mordu or clone ships that fly around in low and drop special rewards).
What alternative do you offer to the player that wants to minimize risk or at least have a chance to evade the ganker/griever?
- Than
I understand that moving things is nice. When I lived in Null and was a young player I didn't have access to Carriers or Freighters, so you know what I did? I moved all my ships myself, often thru dozens and dozens of Null systems, without fitting a single WCS. Yeah, I lost a few of them. But it also taught me the skills I needed to transverse Null alone.
As for low sec, its called d-scan, being aligned, using target breakers, inhibitors, cloaks, ecm, targeted and burst, ecm drones, and you know, just flat out killing the other guy.
Not only boosters should show but any type of assistance including remote reps.
What is the 'real issue'? (At the moment, I see lots of irritation, but no facts).
Is it that People run plexes in stabbed ships?
Yes, it's irritating, but you can catch them, as you prove on your KB.
I see that you say they're "bad for eve". Please define what bad for EvE is. To my mind, the heavy handed 'improvement' you've just suggested is exactly the type we as players want to avoid.
You ignore Foo's totally correct point, that WCS are necessary for moving anything larger than a frigate through lowsec. (If WCS didn't exist, I'd not pvp in anything larger than a frigate, just because I can't afford to move it, or have it moved).
Instead you attack the completely sensible idea that to catch a ship with stabs, you should come prepared, as with any other part of Eve.
"[D]emanding that people "Fit their ships to counter them or shut up" is exactly what we demand from this game. It's the "come prepared or prepare to lose" essential that makes Eve what it is.
This idea speaks to me of frustration at plex farmers, which I completely understand. But removing an otherwise functional, interesting part of the game, because you're against it isn't the way to develop for more than one type of player.
Honestly, this is a multifaceted issue, and I'm no more in favour of plex farmers than anyone else, but please, don't confuse dysfunction in one area with complete dysfunction. If you want to catch a stabbed frigate, fit for it, in the same way you'd bring a hictor to catch Supercarriers and Titans.
The reason they are bad for Eve is part of your second paragraph. You make the false assumption that WCS are needed in order to move safely thru Low Sec. Or Null Sec I would guess. This is wrong headed thinking and exactly the type of thing that results from having a module like WCS in game.
For one thing, Low Sec is not supposed to be safe. For another, you do not need WCS to move big ships thru Low Sec. I know this because I do it all the time. I've also moved BS across many Null Sec regions safely without using WCS. Doing so makes you learn actual game mechanics that are helpful to know in all situations. WCS just make people lazy.
I'm not frustrated. But I'm a unique case and I know for a fact that a lot of players are frustrated. And the entire game mechanic behind fitting WCS on ships is a big part of the reason for that frustration.
I would also like to see boosted ships show some kind of effect on the ship, like a shield hardener, for example, so you know when you are fighting a boosted ship.
Great post
Cerv ( kiting bastard) Marovinjun
I am not questioning it's validity, simply if you also think that justifies being on the killmail too? Also what the guy who is in a fleet with someone who has a couple of leadership skills trained to IV. He then has a solo fight and wins but his friend was in space in system at the time so does he lose his solo killmail aswell?
WCS are a counter, just as shield resists are counters. ECCM is a counter. I could make a long list here, but you get the idea. Why is this particular counter such a bother?
WCS do come with draw backs to target locks. So there are trade-offs. You have spoken against them before, but I seem to be missing the point you want to make.
WCS are supposed to be a counter. But they are currently not functioning that way because the game mechanic for FW is broken and allows people to fit as many as they'd like and still accomplish the goals of the mechanic. So fix the mechanic or ban WCS, I'm game for either of those things.
I agree that the presence of Farmers in what is meant to be a war zone is absurd. To counter this problem, would you be in favour of a Warp core inhibitor field on a beacon, where you couldn't warp away? (in essence, a beacon with a bubble, like the ESS have).
I agree that in many cases, WCS (god, how I tire of writing this initialisation) aren't required to safely traverse lowsec., and that I overstated their necessity. I similarly agree that WCS do make people lazy.
I don't think I ever asserted that Lowsec is meant to be safe, and that's certainly not what I think it should be. However, Eve is a game where you're meant to mitigate risk, and WCS represent one option of doing so. To give an example:
I was moving a Domi through FW space, and came upon a well organised and arranged gatecamp. I didn't have a scout, (My only alt is for cynos) so I blundered into it. I was 20km off, and presumed that I was going down. Because of a combination of agility and the modules I had fit, WCS, MJD, nanos, I was able to jump away from scram range, and then warp away from the long point arazu (or whichever it was).
(I'm not totally lazy ;p)
Without the WCS, the well positioned recon would have kept me tied down until they could land the amount of DPS required to kill me. So, I managed to luck out that they didn't land a scram on me before I jumped, and that they didn't have more than 4 points of warp disruption.
This is my problem with removing WCS: no WCS, I'm dead no matter what I do with a good camp. I wouldn't move a BS through most of FW lowsec, because of the regularity of camps and frigates, because one cruiser on gate would tie me down long enough that his friends can land (grr slow space potato and warp speed changes).
Basically, you're removing my ability to mitigate the risks, without mitigating their efforts to camp gates.
At the moment I can't think of any way that I'd have been able to avoid that camp: It was just set up (they were still warping to field as I got away), the killmails on dotlan were mostly solo, it seemed a good bet. (What more can I do without having a scout?)
Removing WCS makes it harder for me as a solo play to take bigger ships into my home station, and therefore less likely to play in FW space, where I can be shot, in favour of hiding in some empty 0.2 with more sites, more isk, more belts. It's tough enough, even with the pretend backup of a lowsec alliance, who I don't fly with, to run sites and make isk without being interrupted.
As far as I know, all those items (except cloak ofc) activate a weapons timer and thus no docking or jumping (if there's even a station to dock in). In a BS, there's no way I can bounce safes, unless I remove all the tank and rigs, and a cloak is most of my CPU gone anyway. I can't take 15 or so guys in a BS, unless I've planned for it and know what I'm engaging.
I'm not sure what game mechanics I don't know to escape gate camps, I try to stay informed, and a MWD + Cloak trick in a BS seems unlikely to work. (I'm certainly not rich enough to test it).
So I've typed a lot, and mostly it looks intelligible. I've yet to see how WCS, except in cases of FW farming, are an item without merit. Perhaps we will always disagree. It's been nice talking though. Big admirer of your Blog and play style, even if it leads you to unfortunate conclusions :P.
Without the ability to keep me on grid by warp disruption there is no need for WCS anymore either.
To be fair I feel that changing FW mechanics to discourage the use of WCS would be better.
For example: just reduce rewards until it's no longer worth running them for PVE so they only get used by people looking for fights.
Sarcasm aside: some people just don't want to roll over and die. If you deny them means to live, they'll find another. Or they stay in highsec. Or simply quit EVE. You can't force players to just lose stuff to you with no hope to keep it.
WCS don't make anyone feel good, which is the problem. The prey is never in real danger and doesn't get the associated adrenaline, the predator gets frustrated as there is nothing it can do against a fitted module.
WCS make me feel good if I see a point icon and still manage to warp off. I get the adrenaline rush when I see something else as an empty grid.
As prey I would get frustrated as there is nothing I could do against someone that locks and points me.
Rixx could live in nullsec where he would have access to bubbles and WCS are not as strong. He won't though, because that's not his play style. I could just stay out of low/null as well but that's not my play style either.
My main point in favour of keeping WCS is that it allows industrials to be more competitive with jump freighters. Lost product in industrials means you need bigger margins for the venture to be profitable. Even with fuel costs, jump freighters can stock goods in dangerous places far more reliably.
Honestly I think it would be better to remove both jump freighters and WCS and let the profit margins take care of it.
For WCS: I see them as a viable option for everything not pvp. So Travel fittings on a BS is fine and Industrials also. If you can't catch a frigate that is WCS at a gate, that's fine as he travels somewhere. Doing a Plex in FW implies to me that I want to do faction warfare not faction farming. That means fighting for it. I can't claim control over a region if pirates ran over the place all day. I have to remove those too if I want to claim that region.
Nerving the WCS would be one option to bring more PVP into the plexes but the balance may be hard to find.
I totally support your wish for more fights in Low especially in FW plexes. But a change to the mechanic of plexing might be more efficient. Something like “every plex that is abandoned by the contester increases the difficulty to take over that system” combined with “if defensive plexing is interrupted the system index is weakened”.
The Idea is that anyone doing plex that abandons the fight hurts the system index. This could lead to FW systems that aren't claimed at all as pirate presence is too strong. Besides providing a good entry point for “some day pirate faction warfare” it would increase the pirate feeling in eve where players can see that not even the militias are able to keep the pirates at bay.
In that case you would be clad for any WCS guy as he will weaken the system and it is finally yours to put your flag on.
Can't wait to see Triple-ECM Maulus with 4 EC-300 farming FW plexes and Griffins all over the place and stabbed Industrials defplexing medium and large plexes...
I fail to see your point (see what I did there?). If you engage me and I warp off because of WCS it is bad but if I warp off because I ECM'ed the sh*t out of you it is good gameplay?
Or do you want ECM to be removed, too, as it would simply be the new meta for farmers?
In my opinion FW mechanic itself is the problem, not WCS. WCS are just highlighting the fundamental problem (like ECM would if WCS are removed).
So... remove FW? Or remove LP - fight for honour and :gudfights: and some medals in your char-info screen instead of LP? Without LP there won't be any farmers and everyone you encounter would engage you for fun and don't run away - problem solved?
As for the WCS... I say this honestly, and sincerely. Shove it. whining about the ship that got away is akin to complaining about the ratters and miners that safe up/doc when neuts/reds pop up in system. They have no reason to fight you. you don't want what they want (running the plex) and evasion is the optimal response.
I read somewhere long ago on a blog that I cant currently find an example story of people hunting miners complaining that they all ran and just safed whenever the hunters entered. The battle of words was heated until one crusty old miner pointed out that unless they were competing for resources they had no reason to fight. The pvp'ers were incensed. They had no interest in mining, no want for the rocks, just explosions.
Until you work to take from them what they want there is no reason to fight you because it is easier to just let you move on. It may be that there are too many available plexes in FW right now (not really familiar with fw details) reduce their number so that the farmers are working with a scarce resource, not an abundant one and the people who are unwilling to fight for the plex, and the good that comes from gaining it will move on to something else. No changes to WCS required.
You bet you get to write what you want, Rixx, but you can't use that as the reason for why people who disagree with you are wrong. To quote, "This argument is spurious and it infuriates me to no end."
I don't like the fact that there are mods that force me to stay and fight. It ruins my play style. Therefore, all webs, points, bubbles, etc must be removed from the game.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with warp core stabilizers. They do gimp the ship they are fitted on. They are not a guarantor of escape.
The fact is WCS don't actually make your survive low-sec. I mean, as soon as you get caught in a serious gate camp, you will pop no matter what.
WCS are only being used for people to farm plexes without danger. Plexes are meant to be a combat area. At least, CCP should disable WCS from being used inside the Plexes.
WCS are not the problem, FW is. Just remove LP rewards from plexes and WCS farmers will reduce in number.